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This may interest some of you of you who are mindful of the overall weight in the bridge area of your guitars.

I received a recently discovered brand of k&k style PU today. The total weight of the bits hanging off the bridge plate is a merger 2g.

Haven't tried it yet to see how it sounds, but I'll let you know when I do...

bgm.electronics.com Elevation EV-1.3

Thanks Ed. Just curious about your experience with transducer type PU's. On one I did the player had a bit of a hard time with the amplified, unwanted noise if he tapped the top. That is not as a percussion part. No what I mean? I've never really played with that type of PUP. What do you think.

I for one would be very interested to hear what you think.
(Price looks right anyway)

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The name catgut is confusing. There are two explanations for the mix up.

Catgut is an abbreviation of the word cattle gut. Gut strings are made from sheep or goat intestines, in the past even from horse, mule or donkey intestines.

Otherwise it could be from the word kitgut or kitstring. Kit meant fiddle, not kitten.

Well, it's never ideal. Piezo quack vs unwanted noise. So far, my favorite tone wise is the Schatten design HFN passive. The k&k still seem to have a bit of piezo quack. We'll see what these sound like. Just need to find someone who wants a free PU for testing...

LR Baggs Lyric, no quack! Very natural tone, very easy to install with no holes to drill in the bridge and no UST, under saddle transducer.

Ed you will like the K&K and lots of our clients use them and we have installed dozens of them. How do you like the high-tech golf tee.....

Actually, I do not really like the k&k sound, which is rather metallic to my ear, whereas the Schatten is more woody, and representative of the instruments actual sound.

I just pulled a lyric out of a clients guitar, as it dropped the top freq over 20hz, and sucked out almost all of the high end, likely from the thick foam mounting tape. They have no business in my guitars.

I replaced it with a Schatten, the results were not subtle, but dramatic.

And the weight difference between these and K&K is how much?

Are these the ones touted as, "pharmaceutical grade?"

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https://soundcloud.com/jeffreylsuits/he ... -runnin-13

Not sure. My distant recollection of the k&k is 9-11g I think? Anyone have one to weigh?

I haven't injected them yet, so can't comment on the purity...

Really? That's not been our experience with dozens of very happy campers with Lyrics. It's the number one selling pup that our shop installs and we don't even sell pups, folks purchase what they want and bring it to us.

Different strokes.

Ed--

When I look at the installation instructions for the Schatten passive, I see mounting tape and a bridge plate position that looks just like the installation instructions for the Lyric. I put a Lyric in one of my guitars, and had none of the problems you have described. Are you installing the Schatten with putty instead of tape? I guess I'm as puzzled as Hesh is regarding your bad experience with the Lyric. Given your preferred alternative, I don't understand how the results can be so different. Could you give more detail?

I prefer exterior mics, but if I have to use a pickup, the Lyric, paired with a Venue preamp, sure does a nice job.

I am really impressed with the natural sound of the Lyric -- Hesh is it possible to install these incorrectly?

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I'm trying to imagine what could be done incorrectly and the only thing that I can think of is a bad battery that is too low on voltage. When batteries in pups start to go you can get a bit or a distorted sound and/or some clipping of the highs and a more muddy tone.

There is double stick tape but the pup is not a conductor such as a UST and since it's a mic the double sided tape is actually engineered in this application to provide some isolation from the sound board.

There is some good stuff on the Baggs site about the technology that went into the Lyric including some noise cancelation, etc.

The pup that Ed likes is not a popular pup in these parts, I've never even seen one and it sells for a very low price point too around 1/4 the price of a Lyric.

K&K's have a big loyal following too and in the last few years have improved a great deal IMO. We like them both although personally the install for a Lyric is so very easy that it gets points over K&K and the stupid golf tee thing AND the reality that transducer placement can be critical for some applications with K&K.

In the past it was not uncommon for Luthiers to temporally position the KK transducers, string her up and listen and then reposition. IIRC some even used silly putty for the temp positioning before deploying the CA.

It's this critical nature of transducer placement that I don't like personally about K&K's in so much as you can never be really sure that you are optimally installed with the things. But they do sound very good anyway so this is likely a moot point.

A preamp opens up a tremendous amount of possibilities for an acoustic pup and is recommended for those who gig though different sound equipment or are just picky as can be.

The Lyric has actually been around longer than the current product release. It always was 1/2 of the Anthem system combined with the Bagg's Element UST and a blend circuit. The Anthem is a top-shelf choice and we have installed lots of these too with never a complaint.

Don't laugh but I put a Lyric, a $200 pup in a sub $200 guitar for a client recently. It's what he wanted... and the client is always right some of the time.... so we made it so. Surprisingly when amplified his inexpensive guitar sounded great. Go figure....

Regarding weight reduction. When I was building I was a weight watcher freak to a fault.... and I appreciate light weight, uber responsive instruments. I also learned along the way that there is no telling if a guitar will benefit from more weight in the bridge location or less and that it can go either way.

We've all heard from someone who was a blast from the past after installing brass pins back when brass pins, nuts, etc. where the snake oil of the Lutherie day.

In my experience the benefits that some claimed from the brass pins I suspect had to do with the added mass over the sweet spot on the guitar top being beneficial to that specific instrument.

We replaced a bridge on a 20's Martin that had already been replaced from rosewood to ebony some 50 years ago or so. The owner wanted to know if a rosewood bridge as per the original equipment on the guitar would be better tonally....

It's always a red flag for us when someone wants to talk about tone. It's subjective and not something that a definition of success can even be agreed to between different people because we all hear different things.

I thought that there was merit in returning the instrument to how it was built so we made him and installed a rosewood bridge that weighed about 7 grams less than the ebony one that it replaced. Now I may be nuts, likely am and like it this way by the way... but that guitar sounded better to my ear. The client was thrilled and thought that it sounded way better and said so. So go figure, this is an example of weight reduction improving the perceived tone and the prior example with brass pins is a weight increase perceived to improve tone.

Of course too Ed is specific as to the frequency roll off which also brings the testing method into question if one is keen to determine causation with the scientific method.

Anyway pups are very much a personal taste thing and some people have goals that may include a budget solution as well. It's all good and it sure is nice to have more choices than the ole Barcus Berry days..... Remember back then Ken? We just had to rip a BB out a few weeks ago making it very clear just how far acoustic pups have come.

I'll take a free pickup for testing!!!

Yeah that and the condenser mic taped to a tongue depressor ala Don Teeter.

Did you see were Taylor is re-visiting the bridge embedded transducer? Seems I saw that is one of the journals.

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Ken Cierp

http://www.kennethmichaelguitars.com/

I'll try to not pre-judge, but I know this: I've been around long enough to see lots of different types of pickups for acoustic guitars, and the ones that make me cringe more than any others are the ones that build the guitar around the pickup, or incorporate a specific pickup technology so deeply into the design that upgrades are impractical. Acoustic guitars should last for generations. The latest pickup design might last one generation. I think we all ought to encourage players to think about the long haul. If a pickup requires any alteration of the guitar other than an end pin jack and a hole in the saddle slot, it feels imprudent to me. Remember those upper bout control panels? Holes for volume and tone knobs? Ugh!

Lets face it, they all suck

I rather like the K and K's though and am curious to know what brand that is meddling? I recall a post recently about a different brand but forgot the name. My personal is a fishman UST, a Matrix I think, from probably 15 years ago. With some EQ and a good amp it still sounds adequate but terrible none the less.

Don,

The Schatten tape is very very thin like carpet tape, while the Lyric has about a 1mm layer of open cell foam mounting tape.

Bear in mind, I have nothing against Baggs, they're a great company. I must have installed tens of thousands of them in my past life, they were always the best thought out and reliable systems with the lowest failure rate compared to 'the other brands'. Now that's outta the way...

The only reason I got turned on the the Schatten was because a customer insisted that I put one in his guitar. I tried to talk him out of it, but he was adamant. So I reluctantly complied, and was then pleasantly surprised that it didn't suck. The clincher for me though, was going to see him play that night. I kept wondering if he was actually plugged in. But I knew he had to be as I could hear him over the drummer. Point being, the naturalness of it and the fair representation of the actual instrument is what sold me. YMMV.

'The pup that Ed likes is not a popular pup in these parts, I've never even seen one and it sells for a very low price point too around 1/4 the price of a Lyric.'

1/4 price sounds like a good thing to me. Hope you don't associate a low price point with low quality. Don't forget, with the lyric, a good portion of the price comes from the inboard preamp. The Schatten is passive.

Oops, wasn't done yet...

'Of course too Ed is specific as to the frequency roll off which also brings the testing method into question if one is keen to determine causation with the scientific method.'

I don't think that word means what you think it means...

Frequency roll off referring to decibel attenuation at a specific frequency, or something like that.

I was referring to measuring the main top monopole. The lyric dropped the top about 20hz, which is epic. The Schatten about 7hz. Big difference.

But wait, there's more!

'Regarding weight reduction. When I was building I was a weight watcher freak to a fault.... and I appreciate light weight, uber responsive instruments. I also learned along the way that there is no telling if a guitar will benefit from more weight in the bridge location or less and that it can go either way.'

That might be true in your work, and is almost certainly true in factory made guitars with their random monopoles, but that is not at all true in my guitars, quite the opposite.

Anyway, regardless,of the science/math, it's all about the sound. In this case, the Lyric sucked off the highs dramatically, reduced the volume output, and made the guitar feel slow and heavy under the fingers. Replacing it with the Schatten brought back the highs, and made it sound like the guitar had gotten over a nasty cold. YMMV.

I'm excited to try out a PUTW system next...

Are you sure you're looking at the right one? Schatten LP-15 is 1/4 the price of the Lyric, and is the first one I got when looking up the brand, but the HFN that Ed is talking about looks a lot nicer... but is also more expensive at $110, or $150 with preamp. Still cheaper than Lyric though.

Ed, what kind of preamp are you using with the HFN passive? Or do you just plug it straight to the amp? Have you tried the active version?

I have tried the LR Baggs Anthem, and like it, but it is heavy. 15 grams, IIRC. EDIT: Rechecked and it's actually 11 or 12 grams (for just the microphone part).

Looking forward to your review of the EV-1.3

Dennis,

I have tried the active version, and I think that unless you're married to a onboard preamp, you're better served with an off board one.

I use an LR Baggs (told ya I had nothing against them) Venue DI.

Yep I looked at a less expensive model and did not see the model number Ed provided at the bottom left of the pic above.

Regarding the Anthem what are you weighing, Dennis? The Anthem has the Lyric mic and a UST and the weight will be impacted by cable management too if lots of cable is left..... well...... unmanaged. Also, after a Anthem install the saddle, hopefully bone... gets milled down to counter the thickness of the UST. That's weight reduction and likely measurable since bone is dense. As such some weight is being added and a little is being taken away too and cables if left bearing on the UST or mic will account for weight that could be managed to some extent.

Ed Like Don and Ken my experience has been WAY different than yours with the Lyric. Regardless of terminology reductions in highs and or volume after a Lyric install has not been my experience either.

It will of course have to do with the sensitivity of the individual instrument.

It made no difference in any of the factory guitars I've installed them in, but I know what it did to mine.

Oh, you're talking about the lightweight pickup in the first post? I thought you meant the Schatten that he likes.


Just the mic. But I rechecked it just now to be sure, and it's actually only 11 or 12 grams. The Schatten web site says says 7 grams for the HFN, so that is an improvement, but surprising that it could make a 13Hz difference on Ed's guitar.

The Anthem system does indeed have a lot of wires though. And the volume control (mine is the SL, volume only with a small screw to adjust the UST/mic mix, so probably same weight as the Lyric) is 7 grams. As you say, the UST probably cancels out due to the removed saddle weight. So guesstimating wire weight, it would probably end up being 25 grams or so total added to the soundboard... which is the equivalent of a whole extra bridge, so that actually does make sense dropping 20Hz, if the volume control is stuck to an active part of the monopole vibrating area. Looking at Chladni patterns in the Gore/Gilet book, it would indeed be so on the 14 fret dreadnought pictured, but Trevor's 12 fret guitar would conveniently have it sitting right on the node line

Anyway, the original point is that anyone that keeps a keen eye on the weight at the bridge might be interested in the pickup I first mentioned. Tada.